Beautiful post about you and your mom, love, relationships, and this difficult moment in history. Two thoughts, one political, one theological:
1. From what I’ve read, the best way to change someone’s mind about politics is to begin with what they care about. Ask what’s important to them. What are the core values they want upheld by society? Do you care about the same things, or different things? It’s these sorts of conversations, rather than arguments, that are best at creating political change.
2. After many years of clergy work, I’ve become more humble about equating particular theological beliefs with particular results. In the aggregate it might be the case that “It’s part of God’s plan” leads people to greater complacency, but for a particular individual, it might be just the opposite. That belief might give them what they need to keep fighting day-to-day. So rather than starting with “you have the wrong belief,” I think it’s more constructive to ask “how does that belief help you at this time? If you didn’t have that belief, what do you imagine might be different about your life? All beliefs have potential benefits and detriments—what are their potential detriments of your belief and how do you try to avoid them?
I’ve met lots of great kind people who think “God is a big man in the sky” and lots of jerks who think “it’s just us here, so we should make it as good as we can for everyone.” And vice versa.
Thanks for this Dan. Yes, if I'm honest I think I am being unfair to the idea of God's plan b/c as you say that theological belief can lead to action. And I prefer the way you framing this here "how is that belief helping you at this time"? But then I wonder what the next question is? When either the belief or the action/inaction that leads from it so outside our worldview? B/c what do we do when the beliefs are radically different or are leading to difference discernments of what is going or or what is required of us?
I think the next step is to try to get underneath the differences in discernment and in what is thought to be required.
I could be misreading here, but what I hear from your mom’s side is something like “I see what’s happening in the world and like you, I think it’s awful. But I don’t think being vocal about it will change much ‘out there’ whereas being quiet about it keeps things peaceful around the house.” In this case, it sounds as if the "discernment" part might be similar but there is disagreement about the importance and power of speaking up in the face of injustice.
Apologies if I’m sticking my nose where it doesn’t belong, but…If I heard that from my mom, and if the relationship could handle it, I think the next thing I might say is “I’m so sorry to hear you think you have to hide yourself and what you care about to keep things peaceful around the house. That must be really hard for you.” And after giving room for a response and the discussion that might follow, I might ask questions like, “Are you sure that’s true? Do you usually think it’s better to avoid talking about things rather than figure out how to disagree amicably, or is this different for some reason? What do you imagine would happen to your relationship if you weren’t hiding yourself as much? Would it really become unbearable? Are you afraid of violence—verbal or physical? (a cry for help if “yes,” an opening to different possibilities if "no") Is it possible the relationship would become better if you hid less? Maybe a bit more uncomfortable in the short term, but better in the long term? Wouldn’t you want to know what’s important to your partner/spouse rather than have them feel they need to hide themselves from you?”
“Maybe that’s a spiritual practice—the refusal to perform strength, the willingness to be witnessed in pain.” Love this. The eldest daughter’s spiritual practice for sure.
So well said. Thank you. It seems to me that our current level of evolutionary development is still anchored in fight or flight, in the comfort of a dualistic paradigm. It is upon those of us who believe that our best “destiny” is to transcend this way of living, it is upon us to live a different way, to be nuanced and expansive. In short, to love no matter what: to love our families, to love our neighbors, to in our hearts wish for peace and love and transformation for our enemies. You are doing this. You don’t need any affirmation from a stranger like me, but I’ll give it anyway: well done.
It is hard (harder?) in live with messiness/greyness/in-betweeness, but I think the polarization is so damaging. Thanks for your comment, Robert...I appreciate it.
“God’s plan” can be a shelter or an escape hatch. What you did here was neither arguing nor surrendering. You stayed present long enough to let responsibility stay human. That quiet, stubborn love is how minds actually move.
So excellent. The entire section referencing “God’s plan” was so similar to a conversation I had with my Lutheran mom last April it’s scary. I feel like this idea of blind faith has been an effective way to control women for centuries. A way to ensure we live solely in our heads and not use our voices and hands.
Hi Amy, glad (sorry?) this resonated....I wonder about the silencing as well....how it helped keep our mothers compliant/agreeable (my mom is very agreeable). Me, not so much!
Thank you for sharing. I grew up in a fundamentalist, predestination form of Christianity and this quote rang very true:
'When we say “it’s all part of the plan,” we risk absolving ourselves of responsibility for the mess." It also seems to remove the need to help someone for their sake, instead of from what we gain from it, after all if they're suffering- they need to and who are we to interfere with "God's plan"
I love and respect your ability to have these conversations with your mom. I think I'm at a place now where I could as well, were she still alive, but for many years I needed a lot of space.
Andrienne, thanks for sharing this. And I am sorry to hear of your mother's passing. And that is an important reminder for all of us...our time with our parents is limited, and so if we want to have these harder conversations (not that everyone needs to) we shouldn't delay too long. My dad passed a couple years ago but if he had not I imagine I'd be having some hard conversations with him right now too. And a small part of me is relieved not to have to do this emotional labor 2x....
I understand the people who cannot have the difficult conversations. At the time of my mother's death 14 years ago, I was ostracized from the family for going to the "wrong kind of church". So I totally get it when family splits happen!
The thing that stuck out to me in this piece is what you said about transferring our responsibility by saying everything is "God's plan." I have observed the same thing as well. God is excellent at redeeming things, even things that look brutal and hopeless. Unfortunately this ability to turn a bad situation into something good, has caused many to create doctrines that say that the entire thing was God's plan. As if the trauma was required to mine for the gold. Such thinking is very misguided...
I also enjoyed what you said about humility. I have many friends who are mystics and most of them are both grounded and humble because of their connection to God and other greater powers such as angels. It's hard to stay cocky for long when you're standing about as tall as an angel's knee cap. This humility isn't a self-depricating thing, it is balancing. When we know our place in the fabric of the cosmos it brings both peace and confidence.
Balance is not always easy, it takes time and maturity. But it is often the answer to such things that seem at odds. In light of that you might enjoy this piece where my angel teaches me about humility and how to find balance between things that seem at odds:
“The way to stop the pendulum from swinging;
from conservative to liberal and back again,
from masculine to feminine,
from pretty and superficial to something of substance and function,
the way one stills such a pendulum is to realize that two things which were meant to be married and have now been divorced...."
There was a time when I subscribed to the "everything happens for a reason" faith but it no longer holds water. I realize my privilege enabled me to believe that idea. I try to ask "how" now instead of answering the "why".
I do feel like everything happens for a reason is something only some people feel safe/comfortable enough to really believe, so yes, I also hear it as priviledge. thanks for your comment Celia!
This framing of vulnerability over argument is so underrated. Had a simlar dynamic with my dad for years and the shift came when I stopped trying to win and just let him see how I was actually feeling. The God's plan vs human accountability tension is real tho, its so hard to bridge becuase it shapes whether we even think change is possible.
This put words to many feelings I’ve had since 2016. Thank you for that and for provoking more thoughts on better ways to reach out to my mom - drawing her in vs calling her out. I need that lesson.
yes 2016 was the beginning of a lot of turmoil within families...I am glad if own struggling with this has helped you think through how you might move forward. No easy answers here....
Just had to share this for some levity on this topic. It’s SNL’s “mom confessions” skit. We love our moms whose old computers access “a different internet”
Over the years, I’ve had so many versions of this conversation where it isn’t really about politics at all. It’s about how we make sense of fear and suffering. When “God’s plan” becomes our way of coping with things beyond our ability to make sense of, I get it.
But it’s also where I feel a rupture in my own soul.
I can’t believe in a god who needs chaos and violence to make a point. If there’s something sacred here, I think it shows up when we choose to be responsible for what we’re creating and find a way to be brave enough to face it together.
Thanks for this Evan. I think I have a knee jerk reaction to "God's plan" language, even when its not couched as predestination or prosperity gospel, b/c it always feels adjacent to that to me.....
If there is a plan, I sum it up this way: “The meek shall inherit.” It’s true in so many ways, and definitely requires the decentering of which you speak.
So glad you are having this essential conversation in this very real way.
I may have been the person you referred to who said your mom’s views don’t matter: shouldn’t worry about the relationship. Not exactly what I meant. I get that people only change their views in the container of deep relationship. And family can be a crucible for that. Bravo you. And. Your own agency will carry on regardless. Your relationship can be big enough to accommodate friction.
I’ll also add that as a Canadian, while we certainly have our own political divides, they don’t seem to be as emotionally charged or tearing families apart. I remember one time we had signs for 3 different political parties in our lawn. Not a problem! So I do want to acknowledge the courage you are bringing to a deep and culturally pervasive issue.
Hi again Meg...I do wonder how much of this is an American-problem (based on how Americans think about religion, politics, and civility) and how much of the discord is actually demanded by how deep the undoing/ruptures that are taking place here. Interesting question to think about.
i struggle in a similar way. i love loretta ross’s teachings “call people in don’t call them out.”
Yes, that is lovely. I should have quoted that in my piece (and i will if I make something for IG)
“My core values feel violated.”
This hit deep for me in regard to how I sit in relation to my parents and my ex-husband, about politics and relationships, etc.
I stay in relationship because I believe there is good there.
I’m finding myself sitting between what is God’s plan and the repetition of patterns of cruelty that exist. Thanks for the brain food.
Thanks for thinking out loud with me about this.
Beautiful post about you and your mom, love, relationships, and this difficult moment in history. Two thoughts, one political, one theological:
1. From what I’ve read, the best way to change someone’s mind about politics is to begin with what they care about. Ask what’s important to them. What are the core values they want upheld by society? Do you care about the same things, or different things? It’s these sorts of conversations, rather than arguments, that are best at creating political change.
2. After many years of clergy work, I’ve become more humble about equating particular theological beliefs with particular results. In the aggregate it might be the case that “It’s part of God’s plan” leads people to greater complacency, but for a particular individual, it might be just the opposite. That belief might give them what they need to keep fighting day-to-day. So rather than starting with “you have the wrong belief,” I think it’s more constructive to ask “how does that belief help you at this time? If you didn’t have that belief, what do you imagine might be different about your life? All beliefs have potential benefits and detriments—what are their potential detriments of your belief and how do you try to avoid them?
I’ve met lots of great kind people who think “God is a big man in the sky” and lots of jerks who think “it’s just us here, so we should make it as good as we can for everyone.” And vice versa.
Thanks for this Dan. Yes, if I'm honest I think I am being unfair to the idea of God's plan b/c as you say that theological belief can lead to action. And I prefer the way you framing this here "how is that belief helping you at this time"? But then I wonder what the next question is? When either the belief or the action/inaction that leads from it so outside our worldview? B/c what do we do when the beliefs are radically different or are leading to difference discernments of what is going or or what is required of us?
I think the next step is to try to get underneath the differences in discernment and in what is thought to be required.
I could be misreading here, but what I hear from your mom’s side is something like “I see what’s happening in the world and like you, I think it’s awful. But I don’t think being vocal about it will change much ‘out there’ whereas being quiet about it keeps things peaceful around the house.” In this case, it sounds as if the "discernment" part might be similar but there is disagreement about the importance and power of speaking up in the face of injustice.
Apologies if I’m sticking my nose where it doesn’t belong, but…If I heard that from my mom, and if the relationship could handle it, I think the next thing I might say is “I’m so sorry to hear you think you have to hide yourself and what you care about to keep things peaceful around the house. That must be really hard for you.” And after giving room for a response and the discussion that might follow, I might ask questions like, “Are you sure that’s true? Do you usually think it’s better to avoid talking about things rather than figure out how to disagree amicably, or is this different for some reason? What do you imagine would happen to your relationship if you weren’t hiding yourself as much? Would it really become unbearable? Are you afraid of violence—verbal or physical? (a cry for help if “yes,” an opening to different possibilities if "no") Is it possible the relationship would become better if you hid less? Maybe a bit more uncomfortable in the short term, but better in the long term? Wouldn’t you want to know what’s important to your partner/spouse rather than have them feel they need to hide themselves from you?”
“Maybe that’s a spiritual practice—the refusal to perform strength, the willingness to be witnessed in pain.” Love this. The eldest daughter’s spiritual practice for sure.
Not the easiest posture for us to take...maybe that is part of the why it is so powerful
So well said. Thank you. It seems to me that our current level of evolutionary development is still anchored in fight or flight, in the comfort of a dualistic paradigm. It is upon those of us who believe that our best “destiny” is to transcend this way of living, it is upon us to live a different way, to be nuanced and expansive. In short, to love no matter what: to love our families, to love our neighbors, to in our hearts wish for peace and love and transformation for our enemies. You are doing this. You don’t need any affirmation from a stranger like me, but I’ll give it anyway: well done.
Peace.
It is hard (harder?) in live with messiness/greyness/in-betweeness, but I think the polarization is so damaging. Thanks for your comment, Robert...I appreciate it.
“God’s plan” can be a shelter or an escape hatch. What you did here was neither arguing nor surrendering. You stayed present long enough to let responsibility stay human. That quiet, stubborn love is how minds actually move.
I love what you wrote, esp the idea that "quiet, stubborn love is how minds actually move"
So excellent. The entire section referencing “God’s plan” was so similar to a conversation I had with my Lutheran mom last April it’s scary. I feel like this idea of blind faith has been an effective way to control women for centuries. A way to ensure we live solely in our heads and not use our voices and hands.
Hi Amy, glad (sorry?) this resonated....I wonder about the silencing as well....how it helped keep our mothers compliant/agreeable (my mom is very agreeable). Me, not so much!
Same!
Thank you for sharing. I grew up in a fundamentalist, predestination form of Christianity and this quote rang very true:
'When we say “it’s all part of the plan,” we risk absolving ourselves of responsibility for the mess." It also seems to remove the need to help someone for their sake, instead of from what we gain from it, after all if they're suffering- they need to and who are we to interfere with "God's plan"
I love and respect your ability to have these conversations with your mom. I think I'm at a place now where I could as well, were she still alive, but for many years I needed a lot of space.
Andrienne, thanks for sharing this. And I am sorry to hear of your mother's passing. And that is an important reminder for all of us...our time with our parents is limited, and so if we want to have these harder conversations (not that everyone needs to) we shouldn't delay too long. My dad passed a couple years ago but if he had not I imagine I'd be having some hard conversations with him right now too. And a small part of me is relieved not to have to do this emotional labor 2x....
I understand the people who cannot have the difficult conversations. At the time of my mother's death 14 years ago, I was ostracized from the family for going to the "wrong kind of church". So I totally get it when family splits happen!
The thing that stuck out to me in this piece is what you said about transferring our responsibility by saying everything is "God's plan." I have observed the same thing as well. God is excellent at redeeming things, even things that look brutal and hopeless. Unfortunately this ability to turn a bad situation into something good, has caused many to create doctrines that say that the entire thing was God's plan. As if the trauma was required to mine for the gold. Such thinking is very misguided...
I also enjoyed what you said about humility. I have many friends who are mystics and most of them are both grounded and humble because of their connection to God and other greater powers such as angels. It's hard to stay cocky for long when you're standing about as tall as an angel's knee cap. This humility isn't a self-depricating thing, it is balancing. When we know our place in the fabric of the cosmos it brings both peace and confidence.
yes, trying to figure the humility bit without the predestination bit (or giving up responsibility)....thank for thinking out loud with me!
Balance is not always easy, it takes time and maturity. But it is often the answer to such things that seem at odds. In light of that you might enjoy this piece where my angel teaches me about humility and how to find balance between things that seem at odds:
“The way to stop the pendulum from swinging;
from conservative to liberal and back again,
from masculine to feminine,
from pretty and superficial to something of substance and function,
the way one stills such a pendulum is to realize that two things which were meant to be married and have now been divorced...."
from:
https://open.substack.com/pub/interviewingangels/p/pride-humility-and-discernment?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web
There was a time when I subscribed to the "everything happens for a reason" faith but it no longer holds water. I realize my privilege enabled me to believe that idea. I try to ask "how" now instead of answering the "why".
I do feel like everything happens for a reason is something only some people feel safe/comfortable enough to really believe, so yes, I also hear it as priviledge. thanks for your comment Celia!
You’re welcome, Liz! Thank you for replying.
This framing of vulnerability over argument is so underrated. Had a simlar dynamic with my dad for years and the shift came when I stopped trying to win and just let him see how I was actually feeling. The God's plan vs human accountability tension is real tho, its so hard to bridge becuase it shapes whether we even think change is possible.
Yes, all of this...being vulnerable but also sometimes there are fundamental commitments that are hard to bridge. Thanks for you this.
This put words to many feelings I’ve had since 2016. Thank you for that and for provoking more thoughts on better ways to reach out to my mom - drawing her in vs calling her out. I need that lesson.
yes 2016 was the beginning of a lot of turmoil within families...I am glad if own struggling with this has helped you think through how you might move forward. No easy answers here....
Just had to share this for some levity on this topic. It’s SNL’s “mom confessions” skit. We love our moms whose old computers access “a different internet”
https://youtu.be/-wQhY5CMMl4
thanks Trysa---I needed that!
Over the years, I’ve had so many versions of this conversation where it isn’t really about politics at all. It’s about how we make sense of fear and suffering. When “God’s plan” becomes our way of coping with things beyond our ability to make sense of, I get it.
But it’s also where I feel a rupture in my own soul.
I can’t believe in a god who needs chaos and violence to make a point. If there’s something sacred here, I think it shows up when we choose to be responsible for what we’re creating and find a way to be brave enough to face it together.
Thanks for this Evan. I think I have a knee jerk reaction to "God's plan" language, even when its not couched as predestination or prosperity gospel, b/c it always feels adjacent to that to me.....
If there is a plan, I sum it up this way: “The meek shall inherit.” It’s true in so many ways, and definitely requires the decentering of which you speak.
So glad you are having this essential conversation in this very real way.
I may have been the person you referred to who said your mom’s views don’t matter: shouldn’t worry about the relationship. Not exactly what I meant. I get that people only change their views in the container of deep relationship. And family can be a crucible for that. Bravo you. And. Your own agency will carry on regardless. Your relationship can be big enough to accommodate friction.
I’ll also add that as a Canadian, while we certainly have our own political divides, they don’t seem to be as emotionally charged or tearing families apart. I remember one time we had signs for 3 different political parties in our lawn. Not a problem! So I do want to acknowledge the courage you are bringing to a deep and culturally pervasive issue.
Hi again Meg...I do wonder how much of this is an American-problem (based on how Americans think about religion, politics, and civility) and how much of the discord is actually demanded by how deep the undoing/ruptures that are taking place here. Interesting question to think about.
What a great question